Qatch – The Stylist App that is Revolutionizing Online Fashion

Qatch – The Stylist App that is Revolutionizing Online Fashion

Technology can do wonderful things. It can help you purchase a pair of shorts with a snip of your fingers. But it can also make your fingers mindlessly scroll through your phone screen for hours and hours. All this scrolling over the years has turned online fashion into one of the most lucrative businesses in the US. If you take a look at the numbers, you can find that in 2020, the US retail e-commerce revenue from the sale of fashion apparel amounted to over $110 billion.

While technological advancements have made operations smooth for the retailer’s side, consumers like you and I have to deal with the said mindless scrolling. In fact, studies have suggested that the average American spends around 5.4 hours on their phones daily. And a lot of this time is dedicated to online shopping. So how do we make wise purchases online while also reducing our screen time?

This is where Qatch comes in.

What is Qatch?

Simply put, Qatch is a subscription-based online fashion retail app. But what makes Qatch special is that it feels more or less like having your “personal stylist in your pocket”. Because unlike other apps that have dozens of pages with a million options of clothing to choose from, Qatch narrows down your feed based on your personal preferences. It sends you daily recommendations via text so that you don’t have to spend your precious time and effort looking for the perfect piece of clothing. It’s almost like having your personal online fashion platform.

About the Qatch Brand

Based in Boston, Qatch was started in 2020 and is the brainchild of two online shoppers who were frustrated with all the scrolling that made shopping boring. So sisters Nicole Phillips and Raquel Phillips decided to come up with a platform that personalizes your fashion choices for you, with inputs from experts.

The Qatch team predominantly consists of women, which gives more meaning to their working motto of inclusivity. The team consists of expert stylists from different fashion backgrounds bringing in their valuable experience from arenas like Ralph Lauren and other runway and entertainment fields. Their team also includes young interns from different technical fields, ensuring that their ideas always remain tacky and in line with the latest trends.

Qatch believes that everyone has their own idea of ‘best’ and they work towards bringing your best fashion to you. For this, they have teamed up with hundreds of fashion apparel brands that have a wide range of clothing styles that cater to numerous fashion viewpoints. Qatch then curates your smaller, personalized feed from thousands of choices. This saves you a lot of time while also giving you the best out of a broad spectrum of options.

How Qatch Works

So now that you know why Qatch is something to watch out for, let me explain the behind-the-scenes part of it.

Qatch brings you personalization directly to your inbox. The Qatch algorithm is designed to suit your preferences, based on which the app sends you apparel recommendations in the form of text messages via iMessage.

As mentioned, Qatch is a subscription-based platform and you just need to pay a small monthly fee to get started. Once you’re off the waitlist, Qatch allows you to take a Style Quiz that determines your preferences. The quiz is a great way for both you as well as the Qatch app to figure out what you like or dislike, what price ranges you’re comfortable with, which colors you prefer, whether you’re a dress person or a pants person or both, etc. Based on the choices you picked in the Style Quiz, the Qatch algorithm will find the best clothing options for you and send them to you as direct messages. It’s almost like waking up to your personal stylist messaging you style options every morning.

In case your preferences change over time, Qatch has got you covered there as well. Every time you get a recommendation on iMessage, the platform allows you to give your responses to each product. You can do this by double-tapping on the product and giving a heart, thumbs up, or thumbs down to let the algorithm know what you think. This way you get an improved batch of recommendations the next time, with a fresh and more personalized approach.

To buy a product, all you’ve got to do is to tap on the product link and you’ll be redirected to the product page, where you can check it out and make the purchase.

Why Qatch is Your Best Option

Having personalized styling recommendations sent to your inbox is quite an innovative idea that hasn’t been explored much. Qatch brings together technology and the prior experience of stylists to develop something new and treat e-commerce shopping as not just a monetary field but something that consumers feel good about.

Qatch has partnered with popular brands like Anthropologie, Ann Taylor, and Neiman Marcus.

Qatch also brings together hundreds of other brands to curate clothing options that suit you the most. A lot of these brands are owned by women and people belonging to minority communities. By supporting these businesses, Qatch is also making a valid statement in a world dominated by white male capitalism. Many Qatch users have expressed their pleasure at being able to be part of such an endeavor.

As choice and elimination are heavily involved in the algorithm, it’s very likely that you can easily find a product on your recommendation that would otherwise have been on page 56 of an e-commerce website. This way, Qatch saves you a lot of time and effort, thereby making shopping a fun experience rather than a tedious task.


Co-founder Nicole Phillips believes that clothing is the simplest form of communication and has the power to transform your mood. Qatch taps into this transformative ability of clothing and ties it with e-commerce.

Qatch is a relatively new player in the online fashion field but has a lot of potential to turn into something much more popular. They constantly try to evolve themselves as well as the consumer’s ideas by bringing to you brands you haven’t even heard of before. They strive to keep up with the trends and make sure you get your favorite style without compromising your budget.

A Quick Guide to the Best Zoom Alternatives

A Quick Guide to the Best Zoom Alternatives

Hi, I’m Tony! I’m the Community Program Manager at Team SPI. Since 2015, I’ve been hosting online video gatherings ranging from weekly mastermind groups to multi-hundred-person conferences over Zoom and other platforms. I’m always looking for the best possible tools to help people connect in meaningful ways.

When the pandemic hit, it seems that just about everything in life suddenly ended up on Zoom—and about five minutes later, we were already burned out on all of it. 

I’ve had the benefit of using Zoom for my work for several years before all this happened, so I was pretty comfortable with its strengths and weaknesses. 

There’s a good reason it became the pandemic go-to—it combines a powerful set of features with solid reliability and a (usually) clean user experience. 

But you’re not reading this because you’re totally satisfied with your Zoom experience. There has to be something better out there, right? 

The answer to that, of course, depends on you and what you’re looking to do. 

Here’s what to expect in this post!

And the Zoom alternatives, organized by category:

  1. I need something web-based.
  2. I just need to talk to my team and clients.
  3. I need something that supports my corporate needs.
  4. I need to produce events.
  5. I want to create a virtual space for my people to hang out in.
  6. I don’t actually need video.

Why You Might Want to Use Zoom (or Not)

While I’m a big fan of Zoom, I’ve also been searching hard for the best alternatives depending on the different needs of the various meetings and events I host online. 

Benefits of Zoom

Some of Zoom’s key strengths:

  • It’s established. So many people have learned how to use Zoom already, so you can build on that convenience. 
  • It’s (pretty) affordable. For ~$15 per month, you get an incredibly powerful platform with a lot of tools. 
  • It works well. Part of what fed Zoom’s success was its ability to do exactly what it sets out to do, as well as or better than just about everyone else. They thought through the user experience and removed barriers left and right, making quality video meetings dead easy to host. They’re tops for a reason! 
  • It’s got powerful features. When you get comfortable with Zoom’s capabilities, you can do some pretty sophisticated things. Breakout rooms, advanced screen sharing capabilities, polls, live streaming, and more allow you to go as far as hosting whole conferences.

Disadvantages of Zoom

Some reasons why you might not want to use Zoom:

  • Cost. The free level only lets you host meetings for 40 minutes at a time. 
  • Software requirements. Hosts requires software to be installed. 
  • No perpetual room. Each meeting has a start and end time. 
  • No P2P network. People join or leave meetings, but there’s no way to connect outside that. 
  • Wonky breakout rooms. While Zoom has powerful breakout room features, it’s easy for things to go haywire if you’re not careful.
  • Lack of event production features. Zoom is functional, but it doesn’t give you tools to produce a slick, professional looking event. 

With this in mind, I wanted to offer you an overview of some of the best platforms I’ve found, based on how your needs contrast with what Zoom has to offer. 

Note: This landscape is changing constantly. New platforms are coming out every single day, and existing ones are launching new features continuously. Consider this a snapshot of my subjective opinion!

1. I need something web-based.

No installation needed—just pop open a browser window and go!

Google Meet

Google’s approach to video meetings used to drive me crazy. For years, they struggled to nail down a consistent strategy, changing brands and rearranging their interfaces to the point where it was just all too confusing. 

Not long after the pandemic hit, however, they finally found a sweet spot—offering just enough functionality and a clean, sensible interface that put the tools I needed in just the right spots.

Forcing integration into Google Calendar, annoying as it may be to a non-Meet user, does make it that much more convenient to book a meeting with a handy link without having to leave the calendar app. 

My biggest caveat with Google Meet has been in its CPU usage. While in recent weeks I haven’t noticed as much of an issue, I have had months-long stretches when using Google Meet meant spiking my not-that-old computer’s CPU and slowing everything else to a crawl. 

If you decide to try it, keep an eye on how it operates on your machine!

One of the early entrants into browser-based meeting, differentiated themselves by their emphasis on being lightweight and easy. If you’re looking for something simple, especially for one-off meetings, is here for you!

2. I just need to talk to my team and clients.

If you largely have a consistent team of trusted people you want to communicate with (and enable communications between), team-oriented platforms have been aggressively upgrading their video capabilities. 


If you’re already in a shared Slack channel with the people you talk to over video, you could cut Zoom out of the loop altogether and do your calls straight through Slack. The interface is relatively lightweight compared to Zoom’s features, but the convenience can’t be beat. 


Originally a hit with the gaming community, Discord pushed the envelope with chat-oriented team channel spaces to the point where businesses have started to take notice. While chat is the default mode of engagement, adding voice and video are easy, with customizations galore. 


Remember Skype? They’ve been in the game longer than anyone. While they’ve dealt with more than a fair share of Microsoft-imposed bloat, Skype haas remained a consistent, hardened option for people who need to communicate—especially when you might be mixing international calling with your team chats. 

3. I need something that supports my corporate needs.

Are you looking for something that supports the wider needs of a larger organization? Zoom’s been building out its enterprise offerings, but others live and breathe it. 

Microsoft Teams

Opinions may vary widely about the experience of Teams, but it’s clear Microsoft has invested heavily in becoming one of the heaviest hitters in enterprise communications. Teams offers many of the features other platforms have, but plays particularly nicely with Microsoft-oriented businesses. 

Webex, GoToMeeting, BlueJeans, Adobe Connect

There are a wide array of corporate-oriented platforms. If you’re looking to make a decision that affects the wider business needs of your organization, I won’t try to tell you which way to go—research the platforms that are out there, define your feature needs, do the demos, and the best answer will emerge.

4. I need to produce events. 

Zoom is a powerful event production platform, but the onus is completely on the organizer to get the content right. Luckily, others are working on making the organizer’s job easier.  

Gatheround (formerly Icebreaker)

I’m as excited about Gatheround as I am about any meeting software platform I’ve seen. They clearly designed the experience specifically to make it easy for people to connect and cultivate meaningful relationships—you can create time-based breakout rooms where people are presented with card-based discussion prompts in either small groups or 1:1 rooms. 

A lobby area offers a great transitional space between breakouts, where a combination of chat and stage area (that others can join with permission) encourages social interaction that just feels different.


If you need a more complete conference-level experience, where each talk can have its own landing page, HeySummit has you covered. You still need another provider to handle the video (Zoom, YouTube, Vimeo, etc.), but HeySummit wraps it in a nice user-friendly shell.

(Disclosure: The folks at HeySummit are good friends of ours.)

5. I want to create a virtual space for my people to hang out in.

The world of “proximity chat” has come a long way—from niche community of super-online escapists to mainstream tool for virtual conferences and more. These video game-like environments allow you to create a sense of place, where people can explore and bump into each other. 

On these platforms, when people’s avatars come into close proximity to one another, their videos come into focus, so you can talk to only those who are “near” you at any given moment. It’s kind of like real life! 


Topia’s hand-drawn style is incredibly appealing to me, personally, because it stands in such contrast to everything else I’m used to seeing. It feels a little more nature-oriented. It helps me feel like I’m entering a special little world. 

Its administrative interface is not for the faint of heart—you need to be willing to poke around and take your time to get to know how things work, and work around some of its features’ more maddening constraints—but your patience will be rewarded with an experience unlike anything most people have seen. 

You can create a custom environment or use one of their templates, which I highly recommend—starting from scratch can be incredibly time consuming, while their templates offer a great insight into the features they offer.

My other favorite proximity chat app is It’s a bit further along in terms of its development, but still have a lot of quirks when it comes to setup and administration. This world isn’t for the established corporate player just yet, but I expect some of these platforms will get there some time soon! has a simplified, Legend of Zelda-like overhead view with a little digital avatar for each person. You can draw rooms, set up walls and floors and decor, and install interactive points where people can view videos, web pages, presentations, or even play a game together. 


In Workfrom, you can create a perpetual “room” where people can come to hang out and work alongside one another. It’s explicitly not a space to hold a scheduled meeting: while cameras will be on, microphones are disabled. You can only talk to each other over chat, leaving your ears free to focus on the admin-chosen musical playlist while you do other things. 

Custom wallpaper and simple discussion prompts in the chat round out an incredibly simple but truly powerful tool for creating a sense of shared presence among a team or small community. 

Go wild

Try everything! There are dozens of these platforms. Check out a giant list here

6. I don’t actually need video.

Video is a powerful tool when you’re gathering people remotely—it’s about as close as we can get to being together, even if it’s not nearly the same. 

How many video meetings, however, actually need to be on video? There are a lot of reasons why someone might not want to be on video at a given time: physical comfort, being on the go, insecurity about their appearance or their environment, internet issues, slow computers, and more. If you can gather people without asking them to turn on their cameras, you can get greater turnout and offer a more accessible experience. 

What tools do you already have, or which could you use for non-video related needs?

Chat apps

We already covered the usual suspects above—chat apps and other asynchronous social spaces are powerful tools when used right. 

Free Conference Call

Along with Mumble, Free Conference Call does exactly what it says it does—with just a few hoops to jump through, you can have a dial-in number set up in no time.


That’s right—Zoom itself is actually a pretty powerful platform for facilitating audio-only phone conversations. If you’ve ever seen one of those big complicated boilerplate Zoom invitations, you’ve seen that Zoom offers call-in numbers for people to easily dial from their phones, without having to memorize and punch in meeting IDs and passcodes. 

Once in the meeting, phone participants actually have a few useful controls available to them just through use of the number pad—even allowing participants to move in and out of breakout rooms. 

Just pick up the phone!

Regular old phone calls—remember them? They might just be the refreshing alternative to being stuck behind your desk looking into a camera. 

To Zoom or Not to Zoom

In the end, Zoom is often the best answer, if not because of its quality execution and affordable price then simply because it’s the one people tend to be the most familiar with. 

If you’re looking for something better, however, a whole lot of people are out there working hard to create products that offer you something different. Try different approaches using different platforms and invite friends or colleagues to experiment with you!

Kevin Conti Of Software Ideas On How To Be A Successful Founder

Kevin Conti Of Software Ideas On How To Be A Successful Founder

Kevin Conti joins us for another text based interview this week.

Kevin is the founder of multiple SaaS products, but is currently focusing on The name of the company says it all really!

It’s a paid newsletter that gives potential SaaS founders software ideas. Kevin does the research and analysis into current successful software companies and determines whether or not there is room to compete.

There’s a lot more to it than this which Kevin goes into in this interview, along with the story of his first venture which did not go so well!

Hello! Could you introduce yourself?

Hi, I’m Kevin Conti! My main focus currently is Software Ideas, a market research and analysis company for serious founders who are looking for their next opportunity.

Software Ideas does roughly $10K MRR. I’ve just recently quit my day job as a software developer to go full-time on Software Ideas and future SaaS projects!

How did you start with Saas products?

I started with SaaS products two years ago with no audience and none of the “unfair advantages” that some people talk about. My only strengths were knowing how to write code and being willing to learn.

I started with my first SaaS,, which was completely a “scratch your own itch” type of idea.

I wanted a note platform for code snippets that had a powerful search engine behind it. This was so that I wouldn’t have to worry about categorizing the snippets and struggling to find them later.

I spent about six months building the product, and on June 07, 2020, I launched CoderNotes on ProductHunt and was #1 Product of the Day for most of the day before settling into #2!

At this point, I thought I had everything figured out. I had hundreds of users heading to the site and tons of positive comments on ProductHunt, including people who said things like, “Thank you, I have always wanted this!”

I shared the metrics and the whole story behind the crazy ProductHunt launch experience here on Indie Hackers .

However, after the craziness died down, I quickly found out that there were a number of issues with my product. Most of them stemmed from the fact that I had committed the most common mistake that engineers make: I had focused on building the product I wanted instead of building something that potential users wanted.

After realizing my mistakes, I wrote a retrospective titled “5 Lessons Learned from Launching My First SaaS.” The goal of this was to help others avoid making the same mistake by entering a market where there isn’t much consumer interest.

Why did you choose to start

what is

Software Ideas actually began as my own personal research to find my next SaaS opportunity.

I had learned from my first experience that it was very important to enter a market where there is already demand, rather than trying to innovate and create a completely new concept.

Kevin Conti

I began by simply looking at job boards to find software companies that were successful enough to be hiring. After all, if they were successful enough to have millions of dollars in payroll, they must be doing something right!

After a while, I realized I could perform the research better if I had access to some of the paid databases that offer company info – things like Crunchbase and Owler – and it would be far more effective than looking through job boards. The only problem was that these things cost thousands of dollars.

The price, combined with a hunch that this research might be valuable to other entrepreneurs looking to start their next business idea, led me to convert my research into a newsletter format. Then I started pre-selling to test for demand!

What has worked for you to grow your business?

how to get ideas for saas products

One of the hot takes I have as a founder is that it’s important to discover a reliable marketing/distribution channel as soon as possible. With CoderNotes, I made the mistake of waiting to build the MVP before finding out how I could acquire customers, which was a huge mistake.

For Software Ideas, I decided to test channels first.

I did this by taking some of my existing research at the time, formatting it into a post (check out the original post here), and including the following snippet at the bottom:

“I’m considering making posts like this every week if there is enough interest.

If you would like (and would pay for) posts like these, reach out to me through my email. I’m giving away another free post just like this one to the people who email me there!

Thanks for reading and I hope you found it valuable!”

I then went and shared the post across a number of different channels, such as Twitter, Reddit, and Indie Hackers.

Those posts led to email conversations (which I’ve posted publicly) that resulted in over $200 of pre-sales before the newsletter even had a name!

This is a huge piece of why I decided to go through with creating the product and it set the stage for Software Ideas’ success and rapid growth to $10K+ MRR. 

However, things have changed as the business has matured.

Here’s how Software Ideas is growing currently.

The number one way that people sign up for a premium subscription of the newsletter is after signing up for the free email list. The free version offers a weekly preview of all the market research and down-market opportunities we cover for the week.

Kevin Conti

Out of the top 10 ways that users have signed up over the past six months, the bulk has been from the free email list:

kevin conti software ideas Saas products

As such, the main focus for our growth is getting as many interested users on the free email list as possible. That’s why if you head to, you will only see one call-to-action (CTA) to pay for the newsletter, but three CTAs to sign up for the free email list.

In fact, our above-the-fold CTA isn’t even to pay for the product – we just want you to see the research and judge it yourself!

software ideas review

Most of our traffic originally came from founder communities such as Indie Hackers and Twitter, but as we’ve grown, our organic traffic from Google has slowly started to eclipse these other channels.

If you look at the last 30 days of traffic, Google brings us nearly double the traffic that Indie Hackers does.

kevin conti

Right now, the main focus of the company from a marketing perspective is to continue to invest in SEO/organic traffic as well as word-of-mouth by adding an affiliate program and a referral program.

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What does Churn look like for your business?

Customers tend to leave for 3 major reasons:

  • They are no longer interested in starting a company, so the newsletter is no longer required
  • They have discovered a business idea that they’re working on (either from the newsletter or externally) and no longer need the ideas and market research
  • They have a difference in values when it comes to what makes a good business idea (most rare) 

I have a different feeling around each category.

For category #1, I consider these churns a wash.

Software Ideas is specifically for very serious founders who are actively looking for their next software business, and if customers fall out of that category then there’s not much we can do to keep them.

For category #2, I consider it a success!

People who leave because they’ve started a company and no longer need the newsletter have received good value from the newsletter!

That said, there is still so much that Software Ideas can do to support early-stage founders. A lot of our product direction in the future will be based on helping founders go from “idea” to “traction”, which includes The Foundation course that I’m working on now.

Category #3 is rare, but it does happen.

The people who fall into category #3 are typically big believers in the “scratch your own itch” type of idea. This is the opposite premise the newsletter was founded on.

After all, the point of the research was so that I would avoid “scratching my own itch” and instead focus on profitable ideas for myself. These founders are very selective about which ideas they’ll consider, and typically I end up refunding them and wishing them luck.

What have you learned through building your business?

The biggest thing I’ve learned is that most early-stage founders are focused on completely the wrong aspects of their company.

It’s natural to focus on the product/MVP above all else. After all, that’s what people are going to be buying, and it needs to be good enough for customers to love it!

But for most founders I talk to, the hardest part of building a company isn’t writing the code (or using no-code tools) to build the actual product. It may be the most time-consuming, but it isn’t the hardest part.

The hardest part is the general category of “marketing.” Most founders I talk to want to have a few customer discovery calls, and if nothing comes up that kills the project they go straight into a building mode.

Kevin Conti

What’s worked best for me is to be far more focused on the distribution channels, trying to get a clear picture of how new potential customers can find out about Software Ideas. I focused on that aspect of the business early on which has made the initial growth much easier. It also allowed me to get an understanding of whether or not it was an idea worth pursuing.

For this reason, I always include a list of high-potential distribution channels for each idea in the Software Ideas newsletter. I want to make sure that we’re emphasizing the importance of exploring these channels, and not just handing subscribers an MVP with no way for them to turn that into an actual business.

Can you share examples of success from your customers?

I’m actually working with a couple of Software Ideas subscribers right now to make some case studies from the businesses that they’ve formed! Unfortunately at this point, I don’t have permission to share company names or more information, so I can’t speak about these in public yet.

That being said, here are some founders that are building in public that I can speak about.

  • Ganesh Mani (@ganeshmani009 on Twitter) built and launched CrossPost App and reached #2 Product of the Day on Product Hunt!
  • Chris Davies created Rentify based on the Software Ideas newsletter, which he then launched on AppSumo. Based on the questions on the AppSumo page, it looks like he may have had some technical issues, but I know that he’s seen a number of sales from this promotion alone.
  • One reader (who may wish to remain anonymous) is building a very cool product called VexMap, a UX error monitoring software that’s currently in a free beta as they explore their positioning in the market.

What tools do you use for your newsletter?

I think that there’s some real opportunity here!

Substack, which is often used in this situation, is a horrible solution for a paid newsletter (in my opinion) – 10% fees plus payment processing fees is just ridiculous for someone looking to turn a profit.

I currently use a home-grown solution. I use MailChimp for the email aspects of Software Ideas, Stripe for billing, and I wrote my own Phoenix application for the membership site, which is where the newsletter archive lives.

If I were to do it over again, I’d look closer at Ghost as a blogging solution, but overall I’m quite happy with my setup for now.

What keeps you going when things are tough?

Ha! I could talk about this forever.

I’ve recently started sharing some of what’s been going on in my personal life over the past few months. Long story short, I’ve been dealing with some serious health issues in my family that completely changed how I’ve been able to work on the business.

Before, I probably would have made some platitudes about how to handle things falling apart, but I’d like to be real here – when you have things going on in your life that are more important than the company you’re founding, it’s one of the hardest things that you go through. What’s more, there’s no easy answer I could share with you, even if I knew the answer myself.

The one thing that has worked for me is to stay grounded.

Kevin Conti

It’s important to be honest with yourself as a founder, which can be difficult to do. All I could do when things were at their worst was to admit to myself that I wasn’t going to be able to accomplish everything I wanted to do and to try to be okay with it.

Perhaps the most important thing you can do when everything feels like it’s falling apart is to have someone there who can support you. Not just emotionally, but actually helping pick up the slack in the business. Being a solo founder is tough because most of the time it’s just you.

If you have people in your life who care about you and are willing to help where they can, even if it’s just answering support questions, it is a huge help in tough times.

Advice for other SaaS founders who are just starting out?

I’m fortunate in that I get to talk to a lot of founders that are just starting out. I get to see the most common mistakes that are being made, as well as the type of founders that end up being successful.

The biggest insight I have into the process of starting a company is to focus on:

  • traction
  • marketing
  • distribution channels

And, to focus early on in the process!

For most engineers, building a product isn’t hard, it’s fun! And it might be challenging, but it’s almost never impossible.

So many engineers, myself included, fall for the trap of thinking that the hard part of starting a company is building the product that people want to buy. But that’s usually not the case! The hard part is finding ways to reliably attract new leads and customers.

In contrast, finding distribution channels is hard! You have to try a lot of them, and you never really know if your experiments failed because the channel legitimately isn’t a good fit or if you just did a bad job.

And for many products, it turns out that finding a single channel to acquire customers never happens or happens too late.

If you’re building a product but don’t have any experiments to prove that the channels you think will drive traffic to your product actually work, I highly recommend you start exploring ways to test it out.